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Cockpit size safety

tomp

New Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2024
Messages
4
Location
Vancouver, BC
How important is being able to get your legs into the cockpit while seated for safety? I'm a tall guy looking for a new kayak and there aren't many that I can get my legs into while seated. My knees usually jam up on the front of the cockpit opening. Under normal circumstances it's just a minor inconvenience to hang my butt over the back deck and shimmy in. My concern is that during a self rescue in rough seas this might become a safety issue - balancing over the back deck and shimmying if feels quite unstable and takes a few precious seconds. I'm curious what everyone's thoughts and experience on this issue are. Thanks!
 
To me it's a deal breaker unless the kayak is cheap and modifiable.

I acknowledge that many swear by the intimate movement contact a kayak gives with a small [so-called 'ocean'] cockpit or masik, but when the chips are down I sure like the idea of having as many options in my favour as possible to re-enter. Requiring a high-CG entry does not make sense to me if there is this other simple option of a longer ckpt opening - especially if only a few inches more would solve the knee entry issue.

(For me, contact can be attained by playing with thigh braces, footpegs, and knee/thigh positioning . . . and if more solid contact would be required, I believe there is a design vacuum on functions of the sprayskirt [but that's another diversion].)

I do have older kayaks that I won't modify because of aesthetic and material [plastic] constraints, but I have also ripped out several other of my coamings [composite and wood] and rebuilt them more to my satisfaction. Just an evening or 2s work.

so some ideas.
 
I’m a tall guy (6’-6” with a 36” inseam) and being able to sit and bring in my legs was a must for me when I finally bought my boat, which is a Sterling Grand Illusion. Others that worked for me and were on my short list were NDK Explorer HV, NDK Romany Surf (composite), P&H Delphin 155 (which will likely be my next boat for rock gardening), and the Necky Chatham 17 (composite).

If you haven’t already tried those, I’d suggest you check them out! I did manage to wriggle into other boats using the “sit and shimmy” method, but I didn’t like it. Fine in flat water, but not ideal in lumpy conditions.
 
Thanks to both of you for the advice. I was already leaning towards the same conclusion. Jurfie, I'm only and inch shorter than you with the same inseam, so I appreciate the boat suggestions. I've been paddling various club and rental boats for years but I'm ready to get my own. Unfortunately there isn't a lot of variety in the local shops. The only boat I really fit into well is the Eddyline Sitka XT. The Deltas are borderline, my knee hits the bottom of the day storage compartment but I can force it through. I'm also keeping an eye on the used market, but it doesn't seem to be thriving.
 
Not exactly he same question you asked, but, here is a list of boats a kayak instructor friend (so someone who has paddled lots of boats) who is 6’ 7" fit in. List is approaching 10 years old now (came out when the Stratos was new), so misses a lot of newer boats:

I don’t think there is a kayak greater than 17’4" that I’m not able to fit into.

I would be able to fit into a fair amount of kayaks in the 16’-17’ range IF I drilled and re-mounted the footrails/ footpegs further away from the seat.

Here is a list of kayaks, shorter than 17’, that I can fit into WITHOUT any modifications:

* Current Designs Sirocco
* P&H Delphin 155
* NorthShore Atlantic LV
* Valley Gemini SP
* P&H Hammer
* Dagger Alchemy 14.0L
* Dagger Stratos 145L


I don't recall him having to sit on back deck to get in any of the boats I saw him in, but he was also such a good paddler that he might have and just did it so fast we didn't notice.

@tomp - some questions back to you related your original question: how likely are you to have trouble when getting in or out of your current kayak? What are your go to rescue formats? If you are someone who has been doing this forever and very rarely have issues getting in and out, and have a reliable roll, then it likely won't be an issue. But if you are not comfortable getting and and out and prefer to scramble for recovery then it likely would be an issue.
 
Tomp, I can relate; I have similar dimensions and have basically just 'learned to live with it', as it were - I've perfected the butt-shimmy move, but it takes practice. When I first started paddling it used to be more of an issue; it's less than ideal but you work with what you've got.

One thing not mentioned yet: there are boats out there specifically designed with a huge cockpit. Seaward makes an XLC (extra long cockpit) version of the Tyee and Guide 17 (a 37" opening, I believe); and there is a Current Design version of the popular Solstice GT called the Titan that is made for 6'5" and up crowd (I had a Solstice Titan for a while; getting in and out was a dream, but the downside was that it felt like you were sitting in a bathtub).
 
Tomp, I cannot at all relate to the trials of a tall person, but I can relate the the ballet of getting in/out of the kayak. I often wonder about the dry exit videos where the person gracefully braces on their behind-the-cockpit paddle and exits the boat. My center of gravity always seems in the wrong place. My motions look like a just-born giraffe.

But are far as wet exit and wet entry - it sounds like you are trying to follow some model that doesn't fit your body.

Imagine this ... you are in your boat, upside down. So you are sitting in an "L" position. After counting to three (to relax), pop your skirt and "somersault" out of the cockpit. Push off with your hands and roll forward. YouTube videos are your friend.

Now for getting back in from the water - you'll see in the re-entrance videos that after you flop on the back deck, you are prone and you'll insert your legs inside the boat as you scooch forward and rotate. So there is no "bending to fit in the cockpit.

I use the heel-hook method myself. But it's the same idea. You are sliding in from a prone position - not sitting trying to bring your legs in. Note on the heel-hook style - the challenge is the stay elongated. There's a tendency to want to fetal up.

Now those entry methods will work when entering from the water. But how to look cool when you are getting in from dry land (or a dock)? Probably some variation of sitting on the back deck (bracing with the paddle out 90° from the kayak), lifting with both arms (one hand stabilizing the paddle shaft), and sliding your legs in.

As to how to dry exit without looking like some newborn critter on Animal Planet - I'm still working on that myself.
 
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Most whitewater kayaks have small cockpit openings and folks wet exit from them just fine.

A large cockpit opening may be more prone to having the spray deck blown in when a wave dumps in your lap. It's also way easier to get your long legs into.

Pros & cons both ways.

I lean towards choosing a boat for the hull shape, cargo capacity, durability, weight, comfort and price.
 
whitewater kayaks have small cockpit openings:

Most are large:
eg. Jackson Antix or Zen 34-36 inches long
Wavesport Fuse 56 33.5 inches long
etc.
**

The tight ckpt example to use is greenland kayaks. These have a fairly low deckbrace [the 'masik'] that crosses directly over the thighs making an extremely tight, intimate fit and therefore allowing quick response but with a tiny ckpt. And also have an enthusiastic following. But . . . .
 
Another point is that most whitewater kayakers are not re-entering their kayaks in lumpy conditions, so a slightly more cumbersome entry isn't going to be an issue.

I would probably be in favour of modifying a kayak to fit. The Delta deck pod could be altered fairly easily, for instance.
 
The Delta deck pod could be altered fairly easily, for instance.
Can ordinary epoxy materials and techniques work well on the plastic Deltas? I thought methacrylate (sp ?) adhesives were needed. I'm not a 'glove box' fan (compartment in front of cockpit with bulbous protrusion into the leg area), if that's what the deck pod refers to - a silly idea IMO. :)
 
Now for getting back in from the water - you'll see in the re-entrance videos that after you flop on the back deck, you are prone and you'll insert your legs inside the boat as you scooch forward and rotate. So there is no "bending to fit in the cockpit.
I agree with your point about wet exits - I've never had an issue getting out.

However, my solo re-entries involve hoisting myself onto the deck (usually behind the cockpit) and getting my butt in the seat as soon as possible to lower my COG. Then I bring my legs in while bracing. The smooth "belly-down-legs-in-rotate-to-seated-position" maneuver does not work for me except in flat water. In more dynamic conditions, I'm back over as soon as I try to slide in when I try that. Could be that I just need more practice, but the "butt-first-then-legs" method works best for me. YMMV.

A roll is a better option, if you have a reliable one. I'm still working on that, and plan to take some rolling lessons this year.
 
Most whitewater kayaks have small cockpit openings and folks wet exit from them just fine.

A large cockpit opening may be more prone to having the spray deck blown in when a wave dumps in your lap. It's also way easier to get your long legs into.

Pros & cons both ways.

I lean towards choosing a boat for the hull shape, cargo capacity, durability, weight, comfort and price.
I don't think wet exits are the concern. As I mention to cougarmeat above, I've never had an issue wet exiting from a tight fitting cockpit. It's getting back in that is the challenge with long legs.

I've paddled many different rental boats - I started paddling something like 20 years or so ago and just bought my own kayak a couple of years ago. I've squeezed into a lot of cockpits using the "sit-and-shimmy" method of sitting on the back deck and sliding my legs in. This works fine for calm waters and/or with other paddlers who can hold the kayak steady during re-entries on the water, but in more challenging conditions and/or when solo, I would not be comfortable having to rely on that (nor having to rely on assisted re-entries at all).

Traditional Greenland-style kayaks with round, ocean cockpits aside, I would want a kayak that I can sit in, then bring my legs in after (and vice-versa when exiting at a beach or dock).

They exist, but they are hard to find unless you have:
  • access to a shop with a great inventory,
  • a rental company with a fleet of decent boats (many are moving to lower-quality manufacturers now it seems, due to the high cost of good boats and the abuse a rental fleet takes each season),
  • access to an on-water demo day, or
  • a tall buddy with a quiver of boats for you to try!
But I do agree that there is such a thing as a "too big cockpit" for the reason you mention.
 
Can ordinary epoxy materials and techniques work well on the plastic Deltas? I thought methacrylate (sp ?) adhesives were needed. I'm not a 'glove box' fan (compartment in front of cockpit with bulbous protrusion into the leg area), if that's what the deck pod refers to - a silly idea IMO. :)

Epoxy works ok. I would be tempted to use the Delta repair kit, which comes with goop, glass, and peel ply.

If one cut the bottom of the deck pod out, a flat sheet of plastic could probably be used to replace it. In that case you'd have scrap plastic to experiment with.

I can pick the repair man at Delta's noggin at some point.
 
I would probably be in favour of modifying a kayak to fit. The Delta deck pod could be altered fairly easily, for instance.

That's a great idea! Didn't occur to me. Taking a grinder to a new kayak would be a bit scary, but I'm sure I'd get over it. It wouldn't even need a big trim.
 
i'm 6.1 / 200 on a good day, and not as flexiable as i would like to be

i've had a Delphin155 for about six years now, and a got CD Sisu in the fall, i asked Coast Outdoors to add the Delphin's (P&H whitewater) backband with rachets to the Sisu a few weeks ago.

releaseing the tension on the backband by flipping the rachet release and leaning back gives me the room to get my legs out with some elegance, and much easier to get back in, then rachet up the backband while setting spraydeck

it's been on for about a month now, it's well worth it to me
 
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That's a great idea! Didn't occur to me. Taking a grinder to a new kayak would be a bit scary, but I'm sure I'd get over it. It wouldn't even need a big trim.

Once you start cutting holes in brand new boats it can get rather hard to stop. It's such a thrill! :D

I changed the shape of the little deck pod on my Stellar S18. It was very deep vertically, but extremely short horizontally. I used a Tupperware container as a mold to lay up a shallower tray which I then glassed in.
 
Jurfie, part of my "image" for getting back in is using a paddle float. With the paddle float out 90° from the kayak - especially if you have both chambers inflated - provides some stability IF you keep your weight leaning to that side as you rotate your torso. There used to be lore about which way to turn - towards or away from the float. In practice, theory aside, it seems an individual matter, just as long as the body weight is canted towards the float.

If your weight shifts to the wrong side, you "flag". You go over, rotating the kayak to its side, with the non-float end in the bungee/rigging behind the cockpit and the float up in the air.

That said, Paddle float reentry works so well in a warm swimming pool. As do kayak rolls, and re-entry and rolls. Out in real water, YMMV :)

I see kayakers, mostly instructors, do this "cowboy" reentry. Either they start from the stearn, straddle the boat, work their way to the cockpit, and drop their butt in. Or they put a hand on each side of the cockpit, and through some magic, push and lift, and are transported into the seat. Neither works for me. My Mariner, especially empty, has a lot of freeboard. Instructors used me for comic relief as the rest of the class, with their much lower rear decks, would work their way forward. I couldn't imagine them holding that balance with rear-quartering seas when they hit Spieden Channel at the wrong time.

Have you had the fun experience where you've hit the roll so well, and with "enthusiasm", that you completely toss yourself over the other side? Remember, afterward, the first thing out of your mouth, when you come up is, "I meant to do that."
 
With respect to front day hatch Deltas, here's some comments from a guy who's had a few:

With respect to modifying the intrusion of the dayhatch body, I would be interested [and tempted] to turn the boat upside down, gently apply heat in the offending area until almost sagging and then pushing down. At the worst, you might have to patchup with some g-flex, at the very worst the dayhatch cover seals it all anyway and you have quick access to your thigh area, and at the best . . it all works out perfectly.

Before trying the above, possibly a call to a Delta tech might give some good advice.
 
From Delta:

I'm not sure if removing the bottom of the pod would help or not. Last year I removed a pod the same way your describing for a customer, once capped they still about 2” of useable depth inside of their day hatch for small items. Cutting the pod as level and cleanly as possible will be the difficult part, once cut then I would suggest a piece of flat bottom abs to glue in and the same adhesive from the repair kit, the MMA to do the job.
 
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