The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeline

[bigbear]

Re: The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeli

Personally, I can't stand the notion of pumping tar sands oil/gas through and into nearly pristine environments. It's really the flora and fauna that I feel for. However, when I do feel for the humans, it's mostly for the young and yet unborn generations whose future we've already stolen.

Is it just me who doesn't understand what the big rush is in getting this oil out from everywhere left, seeing as all the low-hanging fruit is now gone (tar sands/deep sea/ fracking)? Really, is it not obvious that we are a species of twits that continues to invest so much time and energy into this amazing resource that is soon going to cost more in energy to get, than it is to use?

Why doesn't everybody just take a deep breath and slow the frick down. And just maybe there will be a little bit of this incredible resource left for people who will realize that blowing it our our tailpipes isn't the wisest use of the stuff. I just don't understand how 'commerce' stands above ecology.

Please enlighten me.

Thanks.

Ken.........you still there? I'm sure you are. Could you please enlighten
'ernchesto' and most of the rest of this community regarding 'ernchesto's' question. Looking forward to being enlightened........

 

[ken_vandeburgt]

Re: The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeli

Ken.........you still there? I'm sure you are. Could you please enlighten
'ernchesto' and most of the rest of this community regarding 'ernchesto's' question. Looking forward to being enlightened........

I don't know how to enlighten ernchesto and the rest of you who don't get it.

The snarky answer is here is someone who has never had to worry about where their next meal will come from ...

Here are some statistics to think about in terms of energy dependency:
Maslow Heirarchy of Needs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_h ... y_of_needs
Life Expectancy Statistics Canada
http://www40.statcan.gc.ca/l01/cst01/health26-eng.htm
World Population Statistics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population
Malthusian Catastrophe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malthusian_catastrophe
Population North America prior to first contact
http://multiculturalcanada.ca/Encyclopedia/A-Z/a1/5
New York without cars
http://www.masterresource.org/2009/09/h ... c-vehicle/


http://web.directemar.cl/pilotaje/pageB.html

Just for openers...

 

[ken_vandeburgt]

Re: The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeli

The Strait of Magellan (Estrecho de Magallanes) is a passage located at the southern tip of South America, among the Chilean Patagonia, Tierra del Fuego Island and a number of islands to the West. It is the most important natural passage between the Pacific and the Atlantic Oceans. The Strait, in it whole length, belongs to the Republic of Chile and it is part of the XII Region of Magallanes and Chilean Antarctica (Magallanes y la Antártica Chilena). It's eastern access is surrounded by Argentinean waters. In accordance with Chile-Argentina international treaties of 1881 and 1984, the access and sailing from and to the eastern mouth is accessible to vessels of all nations, at any time and circumstances.

The Strait of Magellan, from the Eastern entrance (Punta Dúngenes) to the Western access (Islotes Evangelistas), has a total length of 330 nautical miles.

The Navigation track in the Strait is generally deep and wide. The shallowest depth is 28 meters, near Isla Magdalena. The biggest depth, 1.080 meters abeam of Cooper Key lighthouse. The shortest distance to the coast is 5 cables abeam Crosstide Lighthouse and the greatest 9 miles abeam Puerto Porvenir.

The maximum allowed draught to sail the Strait is 70 feet or 21.3 meters.
http://web.directemar.cl/pilotaje/pageB.html

http://web.directemar.cl/pilotaje/pageB.html


http://web.directemar.cl/pilotaje/pageB.html

As a comparison, Estrecho de Magallanes is longer, narrower, more prone to severe wind, at least as pristine, and carries more shipping traffic than Douglas Channel ever will.

 

[ernchesto]

Re: The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeli

Thanks for all the info Ken. Being the basis of 'informed' decisions, the more the better.
I've attached some grabs from google earth that show what I'd expect is the proposed route (with 2 options - second one I'd only drive a tanker through if I was totally wasted). Option #1 I'd do with only a few drinks and someone on the bridge I was trying to impress. But that's just me.

Anyway, it is shorter than the straight of magellan - this one coming it at ~ 180km. That, to me, is an awfully long distance to be on one's toes when traveling at speeds that would allow you to make all of the tight corners in the route. Have a look at the map - there's a narrow section highlighted that is arguably 3 - 4.5 cables, depending on depths. And I actually think that this is less of a worry than the crazy turns required to navigate the channel - say at night/heavy fog/winds/current/bourbon/etc.

What I'm getting at is that (despite the apparent evidence of flawless transport through the straight of magellan) human error is still glaringly feasible. Just look at the Queen of The North sitting in deep underwater (on her regular route!!!!). Or look at the grounded Italian cruise ship. And we're not even talking about laying all that pipeline (I've spent time on pipeline welding crews, and these guys are about as far from Aldo Leopold as one can get)!

AND we're not talking about the damage done to marine wildlife (cetaceans in particular from underwater noise brought about from the ships). Hmmm, do we value the whales that thrive on our coast??? Maybe we could share the "oilers" franchise name with Edmonton (hey - probly half price). Sounds like a good business decision...

Here's some fresh news on a cracked hull in a tanker here. http://www.vancouversun.com/supertanker ... story.html

So many failure modes, it's difficult to know where to start.

Thanks for listening

 

[ernchesto]

Re: The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeli

The snarky answer is here is someone who has never had to worry about where their next meal will come from ...

You're right. For the most part, it's been pretty cush. I have, however, had the foresight to not enslave myself with a lifetime's mortgage that justifies my need to move to the suburbs, work at a meaninless job, my need for vacations in far-away lands, and my purchase of my 80k$ vehicle so that I can pick my nose and fart all my way to and from work.

No, I've never bought into the concept of wealth creation from destructive practices, which is exactly what this pipeline is. And the wealth created by this pipeline is going to who? C'mon.

 

[ken_vandeburgt]

Re: The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeli

And the wealth created by this pipeline is going to who? C'mon.

This is what I am getting at with the links provided earlier.

Life expectancy has gone up as a direct result of an oil based civilization.

We have a better and more reliable food source as a result of cultivation by oil driven farm machinery. Most of the heavy and dangerous lifting is done by oil driven machines. Air quality has been improved by cutting off pathogens in dust from horse shit and dangerous chemicals in coal smoke.

Our governments get a large part of their royalty revenues from natural resoures. Roads education hospitals and government services from which we all benefit.

And, oh yeah, the companies like Enbridge are public companies. If you want to risk your capital you too can get a piece of the action.

Life expectancy at birth, by sex, by province Males Females
years
Canada
1920 to 1922 59 61
1930 to 1932 60 62
1940 to 1942 63 66
1950 to 1952 66 71
1960 to 1962 68 74
1970 to 1972 69 76
1980 to 1982 72 79
1990 to 1992 75 81
2000 to 2002 77 82

2006 to 2008
Canada 79 83
Newfoundland and Labrador 76 81
Prince Edward Island 78 83
Nova Scotia 77 82
New Brunswick 78 83
Quebec 79 83
Ontario 79 83
Manitoba 77 82
Saskatchewan 77 82
Alberta 78 83
British Columbia 79 84
Source: Statistics Canada, CANSIM, table 102-0512 and Catalogue no. 84-537-XIE.
Last modified: 2011-09-27.

http://www40.statcan.gc.ca/l01/cst01/health26-eng.htm

 

[ken_vandeburgt]

Re: The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeli

AND we're not talking about the damage done to marine wildlife (cetaceans in particular from underwater noise brought about from the ships). Hmmm, do we value the whales that thrive on our coast??? Maybe we could share the "oilers" franchise name with Edmonton (hey - probly half price). Sounds like a good business decision...

I agree that noise from ships does damage to marine wildlife. So do you want to start with tankers? I'd suggest that we would want to address that problem first as it relates to much less essential voyages by eco-tourism and recreational craft.

The higher pitched whine irritates me much worse than noise from cargo/bulk fuel ships. I can only imagine if it is worse for marine life or no.

 

[stuckonearth]

Re: The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeli

There's a high pitched whine in this forum that I find irritating. Oops, did I type that out loud? :shock:

A very interesting recent article in the Ottawa Citizen pertaining to the shenanigans that are going on our west coast...

Questions Canadians should be asking about China

Follow the money. It's always about money. And power. And control.

Makes me wonder whether China's influence extends to how our government currently defines and treats dissent? Scary stuff.

 

[ken_vandeburgt]

Re: The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeli

(from page 6)

Problem four. The discussion of whether we should be selling a strategic resourse to a country that is not politically or culturally aligned. There is no discussion of this in Canada that paragon of political correctness. If this were to be discussed and pros and cons weighed this could be a 1. Its not so its a 0

 

[drahcir]

Re: The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeli

This discussion focuses on the economic impact of the proposed Enbridge pipeline, rather than on the environmental impact:
http://thetyee.ca/News/2012/02/02/Northern-Gateway-Inflationary-Threat/

 

[stuckonearth]

Re: The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeli

(from page 6)

Problem four. The discussion of whether we should be selling a strategic resourse to a country that is not politically or culturally aligned. There is no discussion of this in Canada that paragon of political correctness. If this were to be discussed and pros and cons weighed this could be a 1. Its not so its a 0

I'm sorry Ken but now you're quoting yourself as a counterargument? Frankly, your quote here is as irrelevant as it was on page 6.

Where and to whom the oil is being sold certainly does make a difference in the grand scheme of things. How can it not?

 

[stuckonearth]

Re: The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeli

This discussion focuses on the economic impact of the proposed Enbridge pipeline, rather than on the environmental impact:
http://thetyee.ca/News/2012/02/02/Northern-Gateway-Inflationary-Threat/

Interesting and relevant article, drachir. Most people will get this article, but sadly, some probably won't.

I'm sure that Ken will post some form of 'rebuttal' to ensure that his view is not (even more) distorted.

Since preserving our natural coast doesn't seem important to some, perhaps their mantra should be "Kill the whales! There's some oil to be had in that blubber too!"

 

[bigbear]

Re: The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeli

 

[bigbear]

Re: The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeli

 

[ken_vandeburgt]

Re: The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeli

We should be working to find ways of making it safe.

A friend suggested that double walled pipes (like double hulled tankers) could make a pipeline much more spill resistant.

 

[bigbear]

Re: The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeli

Part of it’s simple enough: the giant energy companies are making so much money right now that they can’t stop gorging themselves.

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175...dustrial_elite_has_it_in_for_the_planet/#more

 

[ernchesto]

Re: The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeli

Thanks for the articles and comics. Good, relevant stuff! They bring the fundamental questions back to ground zero, rather than focussing on the mechanics of making this transfer of oil/nat gas 'safe.' Safe is a relative term, and if anyone has read these articles, or has a deeper (ecological) understanding of what's at stake, this project is about as safe as playing Russian roulette with a magazine-loading handgun.

Just like McKibbon noted about Santorum - arguing that he should be the GOP nominee because he "caught on earlier" than newt / mitt that global warming was a hoax. The only reason that these kinds of foolish people are in the positions they are is because we're, not only allowing them to be, but encouraging them! It's embarrassing really.

Maybe we just need to turn off our TVs?

 

[bigbear]

Re: The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeli

Maybe we just need to turn off our TVs?

I turned my TV off 10 years ago. The 'internet' is my entertainment center, my news source, etc. I choose what site I want to view, the source of information, etc. Unfortunately, the powers that be want to take that away from me, and I'm certain in the next ten years (especially after the next inevitable attack on American soil) the internet as I know it will be a figment of the past (call be pessimistic). TURN OFF YOUR TV'S!!! The biggest source of misinformation and propaganda on the planet. Had to chuckle at the Super Bowl half time show. When Madonna disappears at the end of her act and a giant "World Peace" sign is displayed on the field..........from a country who has been in perpetual war my entire living life....and I'm an old fuddy duddy!

 

[stuckonearth]

Re: The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeli

I recall a time when I lived in a free Canada. How I long for those days...

http://news.sympatico.ca/oped/coffee-ta ... s/0157327b

 

[stuckonearth]

Re: The Pipedreams Project, BC's coast & the Enbridge Pipeli

Can someone explain to me what is going on here?...

http://www.pm.gc.ca/eng/media.asp?categ ... 26&id=4631

an excerpt...

A renewal of the Memorandum of Understanding on Energy Cooperation that will attract capital investment and improve access to Chinese markets for Canada’s energy resources, technology and related services;

Oil exports? Ya think? The ball is rolling.

Ken_v, you really need to look a little deeper than where you've been looking for the reasons why this oil is going to be transported through our wilderness areas (and creating a whole lot more of a disturbance than a small floatplane).